Curse

Wrath of m0o · Jan 30, 2008, 07:59 AM // 07:59

/Signed
Would be awesome, and then people would actually play together again, instead of soloing the title that they are working on. Imo Titles hurt the PvE aspect of this game. Im going nuts trying to get max reputation points on 8 characters. My guild doesnt know me anymore.
Hey moo, wanna do this with us? Nope srry, i have 30k to go for max Asura title.

Vesio · Jan 30, 2008, 05:59 PM // 17:59

/notsigned

This idea really does nothing to alleviate the grind. you're still going to be grinding the points up to a certain level regardless if it is being done on one or 10 characters. There's no difference if you're getting 5k points on 10 characters, or 50k on one. It still adds up to 50k points. In fact, it could potentially mean more work getting those other 9 characters up to the spot to get those 5k points. The only thing you gain is the ability to display a title on a character that hasn't even been to a part of the game required to complete that title.

You also lose one of the few ways to make each character unique in the game. Others may not see it, but you know that some of your characters have completed certain aspects of the game that others will never touch. It makes that character unique.

there is a different way to fixing the "problem of grinding." It would require a paradigm shift in the thinking of the entire GW community most likely, but it fixes the problem. Want to know what it is?

Refuse to do it!!

Simple as that. Short of titles like gamer, sweet tooth, and drunkard there are very few (if any) "grind" titles that cannot be achieved by doing something more pleasureable (i.e. playing with guildmates heaven forbid). In a mission? work on cartographer. Out vanquishing? Pick up bounties, map, open chests, ID things, cap a skill or two. A guildie would like you to come along with them? DO IT!!! Trust me, human allies are much more enjoyable than computer allies spouting the same thing time and again.

Alleviating the grind is going to have to come from the community. ANet, or any other gaming company for that matter, will not do it for you.

Shadowmoon · Jan 30, 2008, 08:01 PM // 20:01

LDoA and Survivor are both grind titles. One requires month of death leveling, the other requires Xp grinding.
I beleive some grind based title should be accoutn based. Teasure hunter, wisdom,and LDoA.
These are major grind titles, they take either over 2 mil gold, 200 hours of gameplay to complete, or both. I would add survivor to the list also because if u make LDoA, you should also add survivor to be fair. The time required to max these are comparable to accoutn based title, (un)lucky, and faction titles
Other grind based title don't take that long to complete, and should remain the same.

Jake_Steel · Jan 30, 2008, 08:26 PM // 20:26

I am all for this, /signed, I was just thinking something along these lines the other day.

bilateralrope · Jan 31, 2008, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vesio

/notsigned
This idea really does nothing to alleviate the grind. you're still going to be grinding the points up to a certain level regardless if it is being done on one or 10 characters. There's no difference if you're getting 5k points on 10 characters, or 50k on one. It still adds up to 50k points. In fact, it could potentially mean more work getting those other 9 characters up to the spot to get those 5k points. The only thing you gain is the ability to display a title on a character that hasn't even been to a part of the game required to complete that title.

Currently the grind required is x per character. So every character adds more grind that you need to do, and you have to do it on that character. So the grind will be xy where x is the per character amount, y is your number of characters.

This suggestion would make the grind xz per account, where y is the multiplier increase for the title break points. Personally I'm hoping the multiplier will be 1.

If the multiplier is less than the number of characters you have, then the grind for you will be decreased. If it's greater then the grind will be increased. The grind will only remain unchanged if the numbers are equal. But if they are equal for you and you then make a new character then this would reduce your grind.

Quote:

You also lose one of the few ways to make each character unique in the game. Others may not see it, but you know that some of your characters have completed certain aspects of the game that others will never touch. It makes that character unique.

For grind titles the "uniqueness" is dependant on how many times a character has been through a specific area.

Quote:

there is a different way to fixing the "problem of grinding." It would require a paradigm shift in the thinking of the entire GW community most likely, but it fixes the problem. Want to know what it is?

Refuse to do it!!

And miss out on the skills that everyone else is using, and sometimes requiring you to have at specific levels in order to play with them.

Quote:

Simple as that. Short of titles like gamer, sweet tooth, and drunkard there are very few (if any) "grind" titles that cannot be achieved by doing something more pleasureable (i.e. playing with guildmates heaven forbid).

Nope, SS/LB doesn't get any more enjoyable when you bring people along. And unlike SS, LB can't be maxed out without having to grind it up somewhere. So where did you grind up your LB title ?

Quote:

In a mission? work on cartographer.

Cartographer isn't a title I'm asking to be changed here.

Quote:

Out vanquishing? Pick up bounties,

Sure if your in an area with bounties you want. And assuming that the character you bring along hasn't already maxed the title. And if your helping guidies you may have to chose between a useful character with a maxed title and a much less useful character without the title maxed. For instance your choices could be between a warrior with max norn and an assassin with only norn 5.

But if the titles were account based then you wouldn't need to decide if helping your guildies is more important than maxing a title because every character would be benefiting equally from the bounties.

Quote:

map, open chests,

While spending more on lockpicks if your not doing this on your title character.

Quote:

ID things,

The wisdom title is the only title where you can perform the vast majority of the work involved on characters other than the one you get the title with.

Quote:

cap a skill or two.

Not a title I want changed, and doing this would require you going into hard mode with an incomplete bar.

Quote:

A guildie would like you to come along with them? DO IT!!! Trust me, human allies are much more enjoyable than computer allies spouting the same thing time and again.

Yes changing from H/Hing it to taking along other players does ease the bordem for a bit. Then it gets boring again since your still doing the exact same thing over and over, only this time you have people along.

Quote:

Alleviating the grind is going to have to come from the community. ANet, or any other gaming company for that matter, will not do it for you.

It was ANET that put the grind there in the first place, after selling Prophesies by advertising skill > time on the game box. It is ANET who can reduce the grind at any time by simply changing a few numbers in the game code. It is ANET that can make the titles account based.

What can the community do other than finding the quicker places to grind up the points ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowmoon

LDoA and Survivor are both grind titles.

And these are also titles you can fail. So if you feel this way please suggest this in another thread so this thread can stay clear of all the emotion surrounding them.

Quote:

Other grind based title don't take that long to complete, and should remain the same.

Can I see your numbers for how many hours of gameplay would take to max out SS,LB and the GW:EN rep titles across an account with 7 characters ?

Or did you say that they don't that that long without even looking at the numbers ?

And what about the people who only get to play Guild Wars for a couple of hours each week ?

LifeInfusion · Jan 31, 2008, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emik

*Hey look at me... I'm a lvl 4 with Legendary Spearmarshal*

how is that any different than "hey look I'm lvl2 in Ring of Fire"? If it doesn't affect other people's gameplay I don't see why not?

Anyway, I think chesthunter+ Wisdom, EOTN reputation (due to similarity to Luxon/Kurzick system) should be accountbased. I am not so sure about the other ones. Sunspear has skills linked to it though so maybe (but the skills are okay even without any sunspear levels beyond 7).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugoff The Unholy

Forgive me for not reading the whole thread as I'm about to go to bed, but...

The ONLY ONLY ONLY problem I have with this is that you could have a level... 1 for example with a disgustingly strong Whirlwind Attack. They would have to tie that stuff in a different way. Well, actually, I'm tired and don't even know if I'm thinking straight. Feel free to correct my logic. I'm new to NF anyway. :P

But even WITH that problem I "sign" x 1,000,000,000

Maybe limiting sunspear/pve skills to lvl 20 characters due to characters not being able to have anything close to those skills at sub20 levels (i.e. Eternal Aura outdamaging a lvl 17's Balthazar's Rage by 3x).

Survivor/Defender of Ascalon/Guardian/Cartographer/Vanquisher don't have any reason to be account based. Skillhunter does (since elite primary attribute skills are pretty pointless)

Seppi · Jan 31, 2008, 03:15 AM // 03:15

No to chest runner.
That would just make unlucky a million times harder to get. >.>
I don't really care about the others.

Vesio · Jan 31, 2008, 06:05 AM // 06:05

@ bilateralrope

You miss my point entirely. This is the paradigm shift that I'm talking about. Don't do the grind simply for doing the grind. Find other reasons to be in the area, then work on the grind titles on the side. As has been previously stated The only skills that require any level on a grind title that i can think of are pve skills which to the best of my knowledge the general consensus is that they break the game anyway. So really doing the grind to get skills that don't really benefit the game in any way doesn't make sense.

"And miss out on the skills that everyone else is using, and sometimes requiring you to have at specific levels in order to play with them."

Begs the question that if everyone else was jumping of a bridge/running headlong into walls etc etc. would you do it to? even if so is it still a good idea? Just because "every one" else are using "those" skills doesn't mean you have to to be effective. So it requires some patience to get the titles. Oh no.

Most of your responses miss the entire point of the post entirely so I won't go into them. Even so, barring an extreme shift in the thinking of the community, a new character is just that: new. They haven't heard of Sunspears or Lightbringers, the Norn and Asura are far off legends. They haven't spent the time to be drunk, nor have they traversed the country side looting chests that people leave around. Unless they are really one character reincarnated, or sprung from the head of Zeus it makes no sense that a new character should have those titles.

bilateralrope · Jan 31, 2008, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vesio

@ bilateralrope

You miss my point entirely. This is the paradigm shift that I'm talking about. Don't do the grind simply for doing the grind. Find other reasons to be in the area, then work on the grind titles on the side.

And what do you do when you can't find another reason to be in that area on the character you want to increase the rank with ?

With account based titles you can find reasons easier because you can always vanquish an area again on a second character. But if you start talking about vanquishing the same area multiple times on the one character we are getting back into grinding.

Quote:

As has been previously stated The only skills that require any level on a grind title that i can think of are pve skills which to the best of my knowledge the general consensus is that they break the game anyway. So really doing the grind to get skills that don't really benefit the game in any way doesn't make sense.

Having a high rank in the skills makes them more powerful which benefits the players with them. So they are game-breaking, then this makes it worse because they break the game in favor of the people who do the grind.

Quote:

Begs the question that if everyone else was jumping of a bridge/running headlong into walls etc etc. would you do it to? even if so is it still a good idea? Just because "every one" else are using "those" skills doesn't mean you have to to be effective. So it requires some patience to get the titles. Oh no.

When you invite a PUG into your party would you prefer they had an easy to use or a hard to use bar ?
Ursan blessing is easier to run than almost every other build I've seen.

If you had to chose between two PUGs would you pick the one with the weaker build ?
Ursan blessing is usually the stronger bar. And a higher rank makes the blessing stronger, meaning a more desirable character.

So it becomes very easy to see why the PUG's demand that unknown players use specific builds and put rank restrictions in place.

So lets take an area that the player in question can't hero/hench, yet they still want to complete it. Their guildies have no interest in this area so getting help from them isn't an option. The PUG's doing that area won't let him join because his Norn title is too low on that character. Even though he has other characters that do have maximum Norn rank.
So what should he do there to complete the area without grinding up the title ?

Quote:

Most of your responses miss the entire point of the post entirely so I won't go into them.

Lets see the points I got from your first post:
- This won't reduce the grind because we still have to acquire the same number of points. I responded to that with some simple math to show it wrong
- Losing "uniqueness". Although you never explained what was so special about uniqueness coming from repeating the same area over and over.
- Find other reasons to be in the area. But that doesn't work if you can't find reasons.
- Refuse do the grind. Therefore you will miss out on the stat boosts that come from it while making a protest that no-one notices.
- Look to the community for a solution. Yet you didn't explain what kind of solution the community could provide or how to persuade them to provide it.

So what did I miss ?

Quote:

Even so, barring an extreme shift in the thinking of the community, a new character is just that: new. They haven't heard of Sunspears or Lightbringers, the Norn and Asura are far off legends. They haven't spent the time to be drunk, nor have they traversed the country side looting chests that people leave around. Unless they are really one character reincarnated, or sprung from the head of Zeus it makes no sense that a new character should have those titles.

The new character hasn't done anything to do with the Luxon/Kurzick war, yet they can display the Allegiance title and the NPC's react based on what the other characters have done. They haven't done anything to earn wealth, yet the Xunlai agents treat them exactly like any other character on the account.

Why is this ?
Because gameplay mechanics are more important than the game lore. So I'll only consider an argument from game lore if it also explains the behaviour of the Luxon/Kurzick/Xunlai NPC's treating an account as a single entity. If you bring up gameplay mechanic arguments then you are admitting that the lore doesn't apply there. And if it doesn't apply there, why should it apply here ?

LicensedLuny · Jan 31, 2008, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vesio

... Even so, barring an extreme shift in the thinking of the community, a new character is just that: new. They haven't heard of Sunspears or Lightbringers, the Norn and Asura are far off legends. They haven't spent the time to be drunk, nor have they traversed the country side looting chests that people leave around. Unless they are really one character reincarnated, or sprung from the head of Zeus it makes no sense that a new character should have those titles.

I'm a member of the community. To me, a new PvE character I make is for having a primary W, R, Mo, E, Me, N, Rt, A, D, or P. (I've got 9 out of 10.) I do not forget the quests and missions I faced on prior characters when I start a new character. I do not forget lessons I learned while playing other characters. Why shouldn't I be able to have the title benefits that *I* earned already? How does it break anyone else's game?

We're not asking that every new character you create gets immediate access to every outpost your account has unlocked. We're asking that every new character we create gets the benefits of the hours and hours of repetitive, bounty-hunt work done on prior characters and the benefits of the gold spent on lockpicks from the entire account.

Vesio, if you want to roleplay with your characters, great, have fun. But your implication that the entire community plays each of their new characters that way is pretty off the mark, I think.

How does it hurt you if bilateralrope's suggestions are implemented? No one would ever have to display a title that they didn't want to display. You could still roleplay with a new character like you had no idea what was coming. You wouldn't have to use the PvE-only skills that had benefits of all your prior characters' work. If you don't want their passive benefits (like LB vs. margonites/demons or Vanguard vs. Charr,) you simply don't have that title displayed in areas where they're valid.

I've still not heard a really valid argument against this suggestion, as in one that breaks the game. I don't understand why anyone wants to force this character-roleplaying idea on everyone.

And I, too, clearly remember ANet promotional materials stressing the importance of a player's skills over their time spent in game. Having these benefit-linked titles associated with characters instead of the account makes that false advertising.

ANet may have intended/hoped the titles-per-character would keep the players busy until GW2. In fact, I'd say it pushes more players away. After grinding high level titles on one character, I find it extremely depressing to have to level another character through the title-tiers again. I don't even want to display the title, just get through the campaign to be able to play the class I want with my friends. The "time-outs" I take from GW have become a lot more frequent and last a lot longer than they used to. It's harder for me to be excited about getting another of my characters through campaigns now. I think having the titles with linked benefits account based would make it at least a little easier.

:/

Nemo the Capitalist · Jan 31, 2008, 03:14 PM // 15:14

/signed

is there any sanity and clarity in the world if not this thread is

tmr819 · Jan 31, 2008, 04:22 PM // 16:22

/Signed, sort of.

Let's make this simpler but not too easy.

I would say titles should be account based ONCE said character has completed the associated campaign. In other words, a toon couldn't access the maximum Lightbringer or Sunspear rank achieved on that account until it has completed the Nightfall campaign. Likewise, for the EotN ranks.

For the other ranks, I really don't care.

Snow Bunny · Jan 31, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

I'll argue this point again. Make Luxon/Kurzick titles character based.

Then it's all fair. There's enough kiddies running around with KoaBD anyway.

Shadowmoon · Jan 31, 2008, 06:58 PM // 18:58

of course i count only one character. My view is the time/money factor. Most task based title will take around 50-100 hour to complete (there are 100+ zone to vanquish taking a average of 1 hour to finish, 301 elite skill take average of 10-15 min to cap). Why should we consider the time to do it on 7 other character, why not consider 12 other character, or whatever the limit of character slot you can buy? I can tell you why they shouldn't, because rep titles are character development that the PvE community wanted. That is what most pve title are, showing how you developed your character.
Only reason i beleive Teasure hunter, Wisdom, and LDoA should be account based is the sheer time required to max them on one character. The time is on par with (un) lucky, luxon, and kurzick. I'm up for one of two solutions, adjust the titles to make them require less time to make them more acceptable being character based. Or make them account based.
I beleive I'm making a good compromise suggesting leaving the extreme grind to be accoutn based, while the small to moderate grinds character.

Randvek · Jan 31, 2008, 08:32 PM // 20:32

I'll freely admit that I am a title collector. But unlike most of the other title collectorss, I actually like this idea.

I can't count the number of times a group of people have wanted to do something, but not needed a Warrior, and I had to decide between working on my title character or going with the group, but on a non-title character.

Or how many times have I had to say "oh, I don't use lockpicks on this character" when asked why I am not getting chests.

Or switched characters just to ID my golds.

So what if this would mean more characters walk around with KoaBD? The person still put in the effort to get the title, and still has that experience, even if it was a different character. What you people aren't realizing is that, while more characters have KoaBD, more PEOPLE won't. This isn't a magic wand to give people titles. It's an attempt to consolidate all the work you've already done.

Honestly, I just can't fathom some of the arguments people use against this idea.

And rope, yer awesome for still being active in this thread all this time with all the garbage people keep saying.

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 31, 2008, 08:38 PM // 20:38

/signed

Player > Character

bpphantom · Jan 31, 2008, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Sunspear and Lightbringer don't really require farming/grinding. Just working on other things will actually get you those.

Otherwise however, /signed.

Kanyatta · Feb 01, 2008, 04:14 AM // 04:14

At least this is better than the last "Concept Of The Now"

itsvictor · Feb 01, 2008, 04:21 AM // 04:21

the only ones i don't think should be account based are the legendary guardian and legendary vanquisher, seeing how it breaks continuity of the lore, but things like cartographer (you can't hand someone a map you made?),sweet tooth,etc do take a lot of time...Everything else seems "reasonable" to some extent

Vesio · Feb 01, 2008, 05:19 AM // 05:19

So many things to say so little time to say it. Since LicensedLuny you come up first here i'll respond to you first. First off: I don't role-play. I push buttons to run a fictional toon around a fictional landscape. Whether or not you are willing to admit it there is a difference between an in game toon and yourself. YOU are not a Legendary Spearmarshal, nor are YOU a Holy Lightbringer of anywhere. The toon that you created in someone else's universe is those things. There are things that cannot be helped in games such as these (i.e. YOU not forgetting lessons learned or how to do certain quests), but there are things that can be helped such as the titles. Role-playing and understanding differences are comepletely different things.

As for this breaking my game? Now thousands more characters have access to high level game-breaking skills? And you're going to assume that won't hasten the decay of this game? Naive.

And then you're going to tell me that these same game-breaking skills make skilled players less effective? No, what they do is make the less skilled players able to complete things that they normally wouldn't be able to. A skilled player will still be able to complete everything they wish to in this game without any of the pve skills because lets face it no title is in anyway necessary to complete, and when it really comes down do it it matters little if they are account based or not.

And does it hurt me? Maybe, to a certain extent. Now I have to worry about thousands more people who have put very little thought into their build besides "press 1". Then complaining when they haven't learned how to really play the game. I have to worry (more) about incompetent players when I decide to hop into a PUG. Now people are complaining that titles that have very little significance outside of the plot of the story (and therefore in no way necessary to complete for their continued enjoyment and success) need to be fixed. Furthermore, I don't ever intend on maxing out another SS/LB title so why would I want to be punished for that? I got my 50k. Make it account based and you can be dang sure that the cap will increase. Why would I want to grind out another 50, 100, or even 200k points to get to the point that I am already at? So yes, in a way it can affect me.

Which brings me back to my original point: Don't do it. YOU have a character who has already completed the title? great! you are in no way obligated to go through that grind again.

then i'll move on to Mr. (or Mrs. i don't know which) Bilateralrope.

What do I do if there's no other reason to be in that area? I don't go. Plain and simple. But, even if you gain points doing the same thing only with different characters you are still doing the grind so that argument doesn't lend any support to account based grind titles.

So breaking the game even further to accomodate those who chose not to do the grind (which may very well still end up being a grind) makes it an acceptable course of action?

If i were to invite a PUG i think i'd choose the person that used a well-thought out build. Even if it is harder to run than ursan (because it really goes without saying the interplay of 8 skills is going to be harder to manage than activating one and then spamming the limited bar that you recieve).

And what should this player do to complete the area in question? Start his own group maybe? Have some patience maybe? Help a guildie, work on something else or heaven forbid he would actually come up with a build that would make it possible to find a group or even H/H the area. Because none of that is more desirable than grinding out a rep title.

You also responded with simple math showing how the grind could potentially be even worse for some players. What good does that do you?

And there really isn't anything inherently "special" about grinding away at a title (either character based or account based). But, it sets that character apart on your account as well as in your head. Unique does not always denote "special".

But it does work! Thats the beauty. If you can't find another reason to be in a given area don't be there. Be somewhere else.

Why should I worry about stat boosts that any skilled played doesn't need? And maybe my protest will go unnoticed, but at least i'm not telling ANet that I'm going to continue to do the grind.

Maybe because I don't know everything? But I can tell you this. Make the titles account based and people will still complain about having to grind. Even you my friend may find yourself wishing for days when they are character based.

Finally a decent argument. Your Kurz/Lux argument is good. and you are right about that. Maybe it is that which should be fixed. NPC's should react differently to each of my characters. However, your Xunlai Agents have reacted to every character the same from the start of the game. Wealth or no wealth (you need what, 50 gold to access your chest the first time?). They don't care how much you use the storage as long as you pay them their gold

But, now that you mention it maybe all your characters shouldn't be allowed to access the same storage account (but you know where that will lead).

I think I covered everything. But, most likely I didn't and I'm sure you'll let me know. And I apologize for not using quotes, I don't really know how to do it on these boards. But i'm hopeful that you can find your way through.

P.S. I ground my LB title outside of the Remains of Salahjah during the double point weekend. And rest assured, it was one of the most heinous experiences that I have had to date in the game.

P.P.S. I apologize for the novel